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Author Topic: Women's Outreach? (Female Commenters Only Please)  (Read 1285 times)
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AidaB
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« on: July 29, 2009, 10:28:06 PM »

I am creating this new topic in order to streamline the discussion about "the topless protest". Many people have become interested in this issue and it has caused a fervent discussion. Some individuals feel very strongly about women's rights and there should be a thread where WOMEN discuss the implications of walking around topless. So, if you are female, or identify yourself as having a female gender, please feel free to let your opinion on the issue be heard. If you would not consider yourself female, please refrain from commenting here and refer to the original discussion http://forum.freekeene.com/index.php?topic=1286.0

« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 10:42:56 PM by AidaB » Logged
AidaB
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« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2009, 11:14:14 PM »

So, boobs...  All women have them, in some form or another. Almost all humans have used them to nourish themselves at some point in their lives, yet they are considered to be taboo for some reason. This is not true for all cultures of the world but it is definitely true in ours. I'm not saying they are never shown. Titties are everywhere, but whenever I see breasts (other than my own) they are usually being used as some form of entertainment, as a joke, or merely as sexual objects. Any comedy over PG-13 has boobs in it, any porno will have boobs, boobs are even used to make cars and motorcycles seem more entertaining (if you've been inside any repair shop then you know what I'm talking about).

It is when breasts are exposed casually with no sexual suggestion that they are suddenly deemed offensive. "Those can only be exposed if they are entertaining me or turning me on!!"

I wish that I could say that I live in a culture where this is untrue, but I don't. I wish that on a sunny day I could go in my backyard and get an even tan without worrying about the neighbors, but I can't.

This is a cultural issue, and what is considered normal in a culture will vary for every single individual.
Just because you think that a woman's body should no longer be taboo (and I agree with you) does not mean that your neighbors will also agree. I am not going to push my ideas on others (then I would be just as bad as they are). This is a great topic to discuss. I am glad that people are interested in women's rights but there are much MUCH more important topics to invest your time and effort on.

-Reproductive rights
-Restrictions on the availability of childcare
-Legislated sexual discrimination
-The restriction of sexual education
-The oppression of women in other counties
-The perpetuation of gender stereotypes
etc. etc.

I know that boobies are fun, I know that they are really good at getting the attention of sex starved young men who spend lots of time on the internet. But they are not that important, THEY'RE JUST BOOBIES!!!!


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smeg
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« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2009, 11:53:31 PM »

okay, i've got a vag, so i'll chime in on the topic.

topless protest: i honestly have no problem with it; however, i don't personally think it is a big issue for me.  as i stated before, were women to have the freedom of walking around topless without consequence, i still wouldn't do it, for 1 very important reason: walking around without a bra on is not all that comfortable for me.  i was, um, "blessed" in boob size from a young age; however, only recently did i lose a lot of weight... but none from the boobs.  so now i've got a much smaller body that still has to hold up these huge things on my chest, and it is not easy. 

so, while i believe in the "equality" factor of the protest, i also believe in doing what i want with my own life.  and, frankly, i don't want to walk around without some kind of support helping me carry these things around... so i'm not sure if a topless protest would be appropriate for me. 

it's not that i don't believe in the message... women shouldn't have laws enforced on them unequally to men.

but i don't personally want to walk around topless, for the sheer comfort factor (no "modesty" or "self image" comfort, actual physical comfort).




i do have to bring up a point here; however... many women can have laws enforced on them LESS for the fact that they are women.  for instance, i have a video recording from the same court lobby sam was arrested in that you can clearly hear the bailiff say to me, "just make it look like you're not taking pictures."

thoughts?
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kellie
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« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2009, 07:07:14 AM »

I am glad that people are interested in women's rights but there are much MUCH more important topics to invest your time and effort on.

-Reproductive rights
-Restrictions on the availability of childcare
-Legislated sexual discrimination
-The restriction of sexual education
-The oppression of women in other counties
-The perpetuation of gender stereotypes
etc. etc.


This. 

But we all have to decide what's most important to us. To each her own.
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kellie
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« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2009, 07:27:46 AM »

I am glad that people are interested in women's rights but there are much MUCH more important topics to invest your time and effort on.

-Reproductive rights
-Restrictions on the availability of childcare
-Legislated sexual discrimination
-The restriction of sexual education
-The oppression of women in other counties
-The perpetuation of gender stereotypes
etc. etc.


This. 

But we all have to decide what's most important to us. To each her own.

Some of the things you listed aren't really women's rights issues but more annoying social biases.  We should fight stereotypes, but not by trying to legislate them away.  I agree that "reproductive rights" and "oppression of women in other countries" are both worthy women's rights issues.  Not sure about the childcare or sex education since I'm ignorant of any laws that actually restrict a woman's access to them. 
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kellie
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« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2009, 07:40:20 AM »


i do have to bring up a point here; however... many women can have laws enforced on them LESS for the fact that they are women.  for instance, i have a video recording from the same court lobby sam was arrested in that you can clearly hear the bailiff say to me, "just make it look like you're not taking pictures."

thoughts?

Maybe you should step it up next time and do it topless Evil

In all seriousness, this makes me ill.  I don't want special treatment from the government.  Would make me feel dirty.
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« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2009, 08:02:10 AM »

This is a cultural issue, and what is considered normal in a culture will vary for every single individual.
Just because you think that a woman's body should no longer be taboo (and I agree with you) does not mean that your neighbors will also agree. I am not going to push my ideas on others (then I would be just as bad as they are).
etc. etc.
Quote
I know that boobies are fun, I know that they are really good at getting the attention of sex starved young men who spend lots of time on the internet. But they are not that important, THEY'RE JUST BOOBIES!!!!
plus 1000

There are lots of laws on the books that a majority of people would disagree with, if they actually stopped to think about it for a moment (for example, did you know it's illegal to dance in public on a Sunday before 2:00PM in New Hampshire??).  Sadly, the law about topless women is not one of them.  Even if you managed to get the law overturned tomorrow, or to get the Keene police to stop enforcing it, a big chunk of the local population would still think it's the wrong thing to do and would be offended and angered by women going around topless in public.  Now, if your primary goal is to live exactly as you want every minute of every day, then maybe that's OK, and you are willing to live with the knowledge that a lot of your neighbors have negative thoughts about you.  But if your primary goal is to convince your neighbors of the irrationality of their current ways, and that a society without violent, coercive government is possible, then rubbing their noses in something you know offends them, like a dog who's had an accident on the carpet, is not the most effective way to convince them that you are right and they are wrong.

For those who feel strongly about fighting our cultural bias against female boobs in public, here's an idea: do some sort of positive activism while topless.  That might go farther to point out the silliness of the cultural bias, which is the reason for the law.  "A group of volunteers were interrupted by the Keene police department while doing a litter pickup.  Some of the volunteers were arrested, while others weren't.  The reason?  It was the hottest day of the summer, and the volunteers had all removed their tops to try to cool off.  It was a co-ed group.  The police arrested the females, and left the males alone."  Something like that might actually generate some public sympathy (some people would undoubtedly be unsympathetic no matter how you spin it, but whatever.)
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thedeepillusion
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« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2009, 10:02:39 AM »

plus 1000

There are lots of laws on the books that a majority of people would disagree with, if they actually stopped to think about it for a moment (for example, did you know it's illegal to dance in public on a Sunday before 2:00PM in New Hampshire??).  Sadly, the law about topless women is not one of them.  Even if you managed to get the law overturned tomorrow, or to get the Keene police to stop enforcing it, a big chunk of the local population would still think it's the wrong thing to do and would be offended and angered by women going around topless in public.  Now, if your primary goal is to live exactly as you want every minute of every day, then maybe that's OK, and you are willing to live with the knowledge that a lot of your neighbors have negative thoughts about you.  But if your primary goal is to convince your neighbors of the irrationality of their current ways, and that a society without violent, coercive government is possible, then rubbing their noses in something you know offends them, like a dog who's had an accident on the carpet, is not the most effective way to convince them that you are right and they are wrong.

For those who feel strongly about fighting our cultural bias against female boobs in public, here's an idea: do some sort of positive activism while topless.  That might go farther to point out the silliness of the cultural bias, which is the reason for the law.  "A group of volunteers were interrupted by the Keene police department while doing a litter pickup.  Some of the volunteers were arrested, while others weren't.  The reason?  It was the hottest day of the summer, and the volunteers had all removed their tops to try to cool off.  It was a co-ed group.  The police arrested the females, and left the males alone."  Something like that might actually generate some public sympathy (some people would undoubtedly be unsympathetic no matter how you spin it, but whatever.)

That would be a better situation (IMO) than walking around downtown topless, but I don't think the point would be made right. Yes, there would be more sympathy, but is that what the goal is? I'm not sure. But if it was a planned alt. to do a topless litter pickup, I would totally do that as well. I think the real problem here is that we need to figure out how to get more support than frustration from people, or they won't listen to us, and we have some good things to say.
Anyways, in my mind, the goal is to make a serious statement about 1) The human body, and 2) Equality.
I agreed to do this because the human body should not be feared, and it shouldn't have to be covered up. It is completely natural. As mammals/animals/whatever we should be comfortable walking around in nothing but our own skin, and that shouldn't be shunned. Personally, I think that treatment of the human body is getting worse and worse. It's always less about the person and more about the sexual image when it comes to wearing (or not wearing) clothing. Nakedness in society is not natural, it's sexual. (Especially with women. You know it's true.)
It is when breasts are exposed casually with no sexual suggestion that they are suddenly deemed offensive. "Those can only be exposed if they are entertaining me or turning me on!!"

I wish that I could say that I live in a culture where this is untrue, but I don't. I wish that on a sunny day I could go in my backyard and get an even tan without worrying about the neighbors, but I can't.
100% true statement. I've never heard of a straight guy who had a problem with seeing tits, but I could see a few being extremely confused if they saw the protest. And even some who would be angry. Sadly enough, there are men (and probably twice as many women) out there who would be angry and confused.
And that is exactly why this protest needs to be done. Because sitting around wishing we had a better way to fight tan lines would never accomplish anything.
I believe this is a necessary step in a long hike for liberty in every sense of the world.
And I am so sick of being told that issues aren't important enough to take a stand on. Any issue that anyone cares about is important enough. It's just going to have to come down to who's going to grow some balls and stand up for what they believe, and who's going to stand on the sidelines and never get anywhere except by others' coat tails.

~Cassidy

"Stop bitching and start a revolution."
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