Peacemaker Social Sunday-CANCELED

[David]

David,

My issue with what you were trying to do was entirely based on your tactics, not your goals. I agree completely that self-defense against the State is a losing strategy for activism. But your way of trying to exclude people who oppose you came off as alienating, and not something I really wanted to be associated with. I prefer to try to include as many people as possible in our movement. If they’re “90% there,” I’d rather work on them to eliminate that 10%, not push them away over it. In fact, unless someone has a very legitimate reason such as ostracism over an act of aggression, I believe that people who are trying to cause division are the ones who should be divided off, not those whom they’re trying to cast out. But since I consider you a friend, I was just trying to stay out of it for the most part and wait for the situation to cool down.

Further, using the term self-defender to mean a subset of what it really means was, in earnest, a bit offensive to me. You’re right that human beings think collectively: I know that if the term self-defender becomes popularized as a pejorative for proponents of anti-statist violence among people in our movement, some people will start thinking that anyone who believes in the wider meaning of self-defense is actually a believer in what you meant by the term. I’ve been engaged in enough semantic battles to not particularly relish seeing another one created.

I guess to a degree I was trying to alienate people, but a specific group of people that were completely opposed to the means that I thought were necessary. 
Remember, people will group us together weather we like it or not.  I do not want to be grouped together with people who are/will do things that I don't agree with in the first place. 

It is kinda like hanging out with racists when you are not racist.  Inevitably one of the racists will say, and maybe do something racist.  Once it is done, most people will ignore your claims that you are not 'one of them'. 

Is it not yet obvious that the gun cleaners are recruiting?  It is just a matter of time.    

[antijingoist]

maybe they just want to recruit people with poor gun hygiene?

[Patrick Shields]

I probably would have to come to this if I was still in Keene, David. I have a lot of respect for what you are doing. Thanks for unlocking the topic and explaining why this event was canceled.

[J’raxis 270145]

Another thing to think about, though; if the State wants to discredit us, they’ll just send in a provocateur to commit or incite an act of violence. All the effort in the world to exclude genuine, but pro-violence, activists isn’t going to help if some undercover cop comes to a rally or somesuch, and starts a fake altercation with uniformed cops in order to give them an excuse to do something.

It’s happened before in many movements; it’ll happen here if they want to discredit us. It’s probably a better use of effort to plan and prepare for responding to such a situation, not try to prevent it.

[Sam A. Robrin]

I showed up at the first one to provide a little loyal opposition, but didn't realize it was intended as an ongoing thing.  I suspect I'm not alone in the misimpression.  I would probably have come if I'd known it was still extant, as McCue's is not really my kind of atmosphere.  If you want to continue the meetings, with regular announcements and reminders, I think it would be a good idea.

[FTL_Ian]

I showed up at the first one to provide a little loyal opposition, but didn't realize it was intended as an ongoing thing.  I suspect I'm not alone in the misimpression.  I would probably have come if I'd known it was still extant, as McCue's is not really my kind of atmosphere.  If you want to continue the meetings, with regular announcements and reminders, I think it would be a good idea.

If you bring it back, it might work better if not in direct competition with another Social Sundays.  Perhaps prior to 3p or after 7p?

[Dalebert]

If you bring it back, it might work better if not in direct competition with another Social Sundays.  Perhaps prior to 3p or after 7p?

I think you're missing his point which was to force people to choose really clear sides.

[FTL_Ian]

Right, that was his original point.  I was suggesting a way to increase turnout, since perhaps people are not willing to be so exclusive.